I’m confused. Did he somehow survive getting gutted with a broad sword by Suzaku at the end of season 2, or is this just a stupid what if?
I’m confused. Did he somehow survive getting gutted with a broad sword by Suzaku at the end of season 2, or is this just a stupid what if?
None of the examples you give are applicable for the simple reason there's a massive difference between the example syou've given and the geassxcode theory. The examples you gave have been explicitly shown in the anime. Geassxcode theory was NOT explicitly shown in the anime, indeed it wans't even implicitly suggested at all. That makes a massive difference which breaks the analogy you were trying to present.
Based on the information the anime presents us, there is NO case to be made for geassxcode at all. Quite the opposite, since ALL the information the anime presents us very clearly states people lose the geass when they receive the code. There's no denying that.
Making wild unbased assumptions about the things which are never shown and which are never suggested and which are diametrically opposed to what is shown to us, is NOT canon. And that is the core of the whole thing.
You can come up with the most ridiculous and outlandish reasons why Lelouch was a special snowflake and the rules didn't apply to him, and then pretend "since the anime doesn't show it, it is posisble". That's simply not how canon works.
Furthermore, I don't understand why you are debating this since you yourself say this is moot because Word of God has explicitly and repeatedly explained in official statements that Lelouch is as dead as the dodo.
This whole disucssion is an excercise in futility. Lelouch is dead and not immortal, this is a known fact, confirmed by everyone involved with the show.
I don't know myself, actually. My original point was more of it being possible, not canon. But it is apparent that most of my arguments made sense only to myself. Curse Umineko logic for not being equal to common logic...
Oh well. Re;surrection's out in two days. I think it's gonna be decent, considering spinoff characters will appear too... hopefully they get more character development, and don't just serve as cameos. I probably shouldn't be setting my expectations that high, but still.
LO AND BEHOLD. THE THEORY I HAVE SIDED MYSELF WITH MERE WEEKS AGO IS CANON.
...SOMEWHAT.
No flesh bending, but hell I'm satisfied.
WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW, CGF. WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW.
What theory are you referring to?
The people who have seen the movie have all confirmed that Lelouch at the start of the movie is very very dead and doesn't have the code at all. So code theory which said he got his code and immortality is utterly demolished.
It was never said that he couldn't get the code in the new movie, codes do exist so that was always a possibility, but the entire disucssion always was about the ending of R2, not about the possibilities for the movie. And canon has spoken: code theory is destroyed beyond salvation, Lelouch is dead at the end of R2/Oudou.
The End.
Man oh man, the coping is so great, you're practically starting to contradict yourself. I thought we had agreed that Movie canon is near-identical to the series one, save for Shirley and Joseph surviving, and the Grausam Valkyrie Squadron replacement. There were no changes to the mechanics of Codes and Geass, meaning the same should be possible in maincanon.
Furthermore, no, Lelouch *was* alive in a bodily sense, but his mind was very much dead. To quote the first one to tell us the spoilers, he's in a Kamille-like state. That is enough to satisfy the Words of God about him being dead, while actually keeping him alive. Hell, it's even better than the theory which focuses on the abstractness of identities.
The theory I am referring to is the Renya one, although the end result was a somewhat different version. Sir Dash was, due to sheer bad luck, unqualified to inherit a Code, so he became only near-immortal. He also could not grant Geass, but instead could transform humans into Knightmare soldiers. I've already explained this all on the Geass page's comments.
In Lelouch's case, it isn't certain whether he was unqualified to gain a Code, or if it was due to Charles evaporating before he could inherit the full Code. But in the end, just like Dash, he enjoys near-immortality, having survived Suzaku gutting him with that toy sword, although in his case at the cost of his mind. There still haven't been any spoilers released on that... was it the emotional trauma, or his full conviction that he is dead which caused it? But the basics are, people are guessing he will age normally and die at some point, but it could be just a Renya case where someone with a fully evolved Curse can kill him.
Oh, and another two things, which seem as if ripped straight from the theories. His Code is a little below his neck, and in the last moments of the movie, he names himself L.L. (which also contrasts with my theory a little, since he should properly be named L' or L.).
Coping? Contradicting myself? What are you on about?
Have you even seen the movie?
****MOVIE SPOILERS BELOW****
First of all, Lelouch did really die because he was NOT immortal. His body was revived by C.C. and Jeremiah, so no code immortality. So you saying he was alive in a bodily sense is wrong if you meant that he had survived his stabbing. He was truly totally dead.
Secondly, the movie completely obliterated code theory. Yes, they included a lot of fan service winks, like back when they made Sayoko a ninja, BUT the movie does contradict code theory.
1) Code theory says Lelouch had a code at the end of R2.
2) Code theory says Lelouch was immortal at the end of R2.
3) Code theory says that Lelouch was the cart driver at the end of R2
4) Code theory says that death activates the code.
5) Code theory says it's possible to have both code and geass.
The movie wipes all of that off the tables and completely contradicts code theory.
1) The movie shows us that Lelouch did NOT have a code. he may have gotten something as a primordial or incomplete code, but that's not the code code theory talked about, that's an entirely different concept.
2) The movie shows us that Lelouch was NOT immortal at the end of R2. He was dead and needed to be revived by Jeremiah.
3) The movie shows us that Lelouch could NOT have been the cart driver. Sure they made a wink at this erroneous idea by dressing him up like that, but he's all childlike and thus could NOT have been the cart driver from R2 at all.
4) The movie shows us that codes do NOT need to be activated and that death plays no role in it at all.
5) The movie does NOT show us that you can have both geass and code at the same time. Sure Lelouch still had his geass, but he didn't have a complete code as was postulated in R2. Even that lady who also has geass was still able to be geassed, and thus she too does not have a code like the people in R2.
So, in conclusion, the movie destroyed code theory in every aspect.
It did throw in a lot of winks and drew inspiration from it, but code theory as it was formulated by the fans, i.e. a theory about the ending of R2 and Lelouch's fate at the end of R2, is completely wrong. You can't even twist things to make code theory survive, it's dead and buried.
So your gloating is very misplaced as code theory is killed by canon, as I always said.
You attempting to imply that I contradict myself is even factually wrong as the above analysis very clearly shows.
It is a bit sad though that the movie breaks internal consistency, like the naming conventions established by the Renya manga. I guess they forgot about that.
...oh dearie me, my bad. Apologies, nobody I saw ever mentioned anything about Lelouch's body having to be revived, instead skipping straight to the part where he is a manchild. Though, small question... have *you* seen the movie either? Or are you too basing all this on spoilers? If you have, where?
But I do have a slight point to make- the Code Theory is not really a singular theory. It is something more akin to a belief, which has multiple branches, or "sub-theories". GeassedbyLelouch even draws attention to this by differentiating the Code theory from the Code+Geass theory. It is possible to believe in some of its points without believing in the other ones. Therefore, the third and fourth point are rather unnecessary- the Cart Driver Theory and Code Activation Theory are irrelevant, and the second is frankly stupid, with only complete newcomers flinging it about before being drowned out by in-series proof.
But very well, the first, second and fifth points are indeed true. Though I have no idea why you're dragging Chamna into this. Nobody ever said anything about her having a Code.
Also... Renya didn't really establish any naming conventions. Fans only assumed it did, just like they assumed Shiori inherited Dash's (incomplete) Code, without any proof of it being shown. Had she done so, she would've been called V' (or V.). C.C. was just wondering whether she would become an immortal in the future, and use the name V.V. from then on. Remember, it's likely that everyone at the village used aliases, due to being in hiding. Shiori's true name probably just contained the letter "V".
Of course, this brings Dash's remark about being "supposed to assume the name U.U." into question. Maybe it's only the name of U.U. which has that tradition, while all other immortals have laxer restrictions?
So then, I have one remaining question. Just how did C.C. revive Lelouch? Nobody ever elaborates on that. It's annoying.
No, I haven't. but I do know people who have and who I trust completely.
If they say "he is dead and his corpse was smuggled to France" i have no reason to think they're lying.
Sure, there are various forms of code theory, but all of them have the same core idea in common: Lelouch has the code and is immortal at the end of R2. How and why can vary. Charles' code, C.C.'s code, death activating code, etc. It's shorter though to just talk about code theory as a singular theory.
All of those various forms are disproven by the movie because it shows us Lelouch is most definitely NOT immortal, he's just a corpse. So all the different variations don't really matter.
As for Chamna, as I said, I haven't seen the movie myself but was told things by a very trustworthy source. I copied some of the words given to me. About the code and geass at the same time, apparently there's a new concept introduced, an unfinished code which doesn't provide immortality and doesn't protect against geass, and this primordial code doesn't erase the geass yet. That's what I know. But this is very different from what code theory postulated, as Lelouch doesn't have a (finalized) code.
As for your last question, I don't know. I didn't ask that because I still want to try to avoid spoilers as much as possible, that one crossed the line for me, personally.
Alright, guess we will either wait until camrips get fansubs, or until May when Funimation releases it.
But yes, Chamna doesn't have that incomplete Code. Just the potentially most broken Geass power there is.
It's quite a shame none of the Akito characters or concepts appeared, though. Perhaps they could re-release it as a series in the future- Lelouch's story is over, but Julius Kingsley's sure didn't have enough time to develop, just like everyone else's. Maybe everyone will stop screaming about "bad writing" after that.
I would have like seeing some Akito characters. I liked Leila, especially.
But chances were always very small. It's only a movie, so time is limited. Having to introduce and explain characters who a lot of people haven't seen before costs time and movies often don't have that luxury.